Curse

N1ghtstalker · Apr 24, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

once when i was buying an elite rit tome a guy who didn't know the exact value wanted to sell it to me for 3k
honest as i was i gave him 9k for it

cataphract · Apr 24, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by O Nuxtofulakas

... why others should respect you?

Because we're all human beings?

wilderness · Apr 24, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

If it's just a game - why do you have to grief and steal from people? Don't have enough of bad things in RL or are you just numbed-down to a couch-potato IQ that you simply cannot fathom that it is not a matter where you take advantage of people, but that you do it and feel comfortable with it?

I don't. I can't. But then again, it wasn't my ancestors that bought Manhattan for a couple of beads and occupied a whole continent just because they could. Scamming and taking advantage from people is not hard-wired into me. I apologize. My bad.

This is a matter of supposed morality, not intelligence, there's no need to attempt an insult

Applying real world physics to a game leaves me at something of a loss, I can't quite figure what you're suggesting. That those of us that have exploited the market for profit our in someway as bad as those who exploit people in real life?

The trade system, in theory, is fool proof. It is a two stage system, first asking you to 'submit' and check your trade, then (and only once you have double checked to make sure all is correct) to 'accept' and allow the trade to pass. If my offer of xx plat for your item makes you happy and you click accept it's not a scam and you had every chance to check other sources before clicking accept.

-

However, what I will agree on is this: If someone asks you the value of an item and you know you should be honest.

I would also have an issue if a seller contacted me upset that they hadn't known the value before our trade. In this situation, depending on the seller's politeness (relative to my perceived intelligence of the player in question), I would more than likely return the item or a share of the profit earned.

-

If the trade has changed hands and both parties are happy you cannot call it a scam, regardless of who knew what. The market is as much a game as the rest of it, and as such you need to pay attention or you're going to do very well at all.

N1ghtstalker · Apr 24, 2008, 09:02 AM // 09:02

if a guy actually sells at a low price to you it's not a scam
if you sell for a too high price to others that's a scam
when someone is willing to sell for low it can't be really a scam but when you actually take him for all he's got that would be a wrong thing to do

tmakinen · Apr 24, 2008, 09:03 AM // 09:03

There are people with the opinion that it is morally acceptable to take advantage of those who are somehow weaker than themselves. This point of view has been forwarded with many different arguments like "that's the way it works", "survival of the fittest" or "that will teach them a lesson".

Then there are people with the opinion that you don't have to be a douchebag just because so many others are, or that you don't have to kick babies just because you can, or that if you want to give somebody a lesson, it's better if it teaches them kindness rather than selfishness.

I'd be hard pressed to feel a shred of respect towards people on one side of this argument and I'll leave it as an exercise to figure out which one.

wilderness · Apr 24, 2008, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

There are people with the opinion that it is morally acceptable to take advantage of those who are somehow weaker than themselves. This point of view has been forwarded with many different arguments like "that's the way it works", "survival of the fittest" or "that will teach them a lesson".

Then there are people with the opinion that you don't have to be a douchebag just because so many others are, or that you don't have to kick babies just because you can, or that if you want to give somebody a lesson, it's better if it teaches them kindness rather than selfishness.

I'd be hard pressed to feel a shred of respect towards people on one side of this argument and I'll leave it as an exercise to figure out which one.

Again, applying this to something Real World is completely out of order and using the 'kicking babies' and 'people weaker than' analogies is far too extreme.

cataphract · Apr 24, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

The instant you designate morality as "supposed", it vanishes. There is no gray area with morality. You witholding information pertaining to an item's price is immoral. We can argue about this for the next year, but it all comes down to a personal level. You either have the stomach to be immoral or you don't. You either are a greedy bastard or you aren't. You either can sleep peacefully with your actions or you can't. You either make excuses like "the market is teh suck and one should seize any and opportunity to make a quick buck, even if it calls for being dishonest, cheating or griefing", "the seller is teh noob for not checking GWG auctions" to make yourself feel better or you play and live in such a fashion that does not need self-delusional excuses.

But, alas, you and I are talking about different things here. We do have some common ground, but teh pr0n is not going to download itself, so I'm off.

cataphract · Apr 24, 2008, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

Again, applying this to something Real World is completely out of order and using the 'kicking babies' and 'people weaker than' analogies is far too extreme.

I beg to differ - the mechanics of both RL and in-game actions a person takes are the same.

wilderness · Apr 24, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

I beg to differ - the mechanics of both RL and in-game actions a person takes are the same.

Not true. There is a line people would be very unwilling to cross in RL that they wouldn't think twice about in game as there are no truly negative outcomes.

I buy something from you in real life for a substantially lesser value than it can be sold for and this could actually affect your quality of life. This is substantial, it can inflict many very real harms.

In game all it means is it will take a little longer to get that next set of fow, or to max your current title.

The game is based on skill and feeds you all the items and gold you need to actually play it. The effect of this certain negative action very drastically scales in relation to it's RL equivalent.

I can see why you'd cling to such morality in game though and I'm sorry I still see little problem with playing the market the way I have done, I wish I could be a better person. I really do.

Arden Kindlecorpse · Apr 24, 2008, 09:30 AM // 09:30

What appears to be happening here is that people are differing on their views at what point on the moral continuum they feel squeamish/guilty. Some will find that taking advantage of someone's ignorance is "all fair in love and war", whereas others just wouldn't go there.

TBH, I too am burdened by a fairly rigid moral code - no idea whether this is a plus or not

zwei2stein · Apr 24, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Little anecdote:

I once had guildie who was quite strange person, all bent on making zillions of platinum. He also hated fansites and forum for some reason so he would never check prices himself and refused to trade on guru.

He was very lucky and got elemental sword drop, back when one would fest 100k+80 ectoes.

Guess what, he refused to post it on guru based on his prior experience of people not bidding on some of his random merchant-fodder grade stuff. That and the fact that someone "dared" to make first bid of 5k on his 20k worth item.

So he set for spaming in spamadan. Few minutes in spamming he decided that noone was interested in that "crap item" and lowered price to 80k ("that would rip off noobs") and sold immediately (of course). He was kinda happy with that trade.

You know what i take from this story? There is nothing to regret when you are buying from people who undercut price. Nothing at all. Even if you try, some people simply cant be helped. Everyone has option of asking for price check or doing little research. Everyone has option of being a tad bit more patient or little more open minded.

t00115577 · Apr 24, 2008, 10:37 AM // 10:37

IMO what goes around comes around, i got ripped enough times as a noob.

Once you get ripped a few times you will get more cautious selling and get proper price checks.
If i see a noob sellin a req 7 crystaline for like 10k, hell im gonna buy it

makosi · Apr 24, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Buying items under the going rate from unsuspecting sellers is exploitation of the ignorant. This discussion has been done to death.

You can choose to decorate the above sentence with whichever euphemisms you like but it will never change the fact that your actions was somewhat immoral. Arguing that it is only a game is not valid because there are real people on the other end, the only difference being an internet connection separating the two parties. Merchanting is egotistical and greedy because there is no necessity to do it other than to fulfil your own desires at the expense of other people but I'm not a philosophical or moral spokesperson and I won't tell you what to do.

People will always blame the person who was ripped off by the 'merchant' for being uninformed, just like people blame the victim of a scam, because they see a weakness and kick it ferociously. I sort of blame the GW trade system for being so poor because it is restricted channels of information that allow people to be so ignorant of market trends in the first place. If you don't browse the fan forums' trade sections, you'll be far slower to learn about current item values because GW lacks an auction house (or similar system) for people to browse and learn through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilderness

Not true. There is a line people would be very unwilling to cross in RL that they wouldn't think twice about in game as there are no truly negative outcomes.

This is because they have an underdeveloped sense of empathy/sympathy. Properly deveoped emotions trigger before the threat of consequences.

kobey · Apr 24, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Whats the definition of a noob?
I thought noobs are people who are ignorant and think they are elites?
If thats the case, whats wrong with buying things off them cheaply?

Well, its nothing wrong to buy something really really cheap off someone if the price is agreed upon by both parties and no major form of lying is involved imo. Both parties have the duty to research the prices beforehand. And whats a fair value? Whats market price? Many people say crystallines are crap and ugly and well if they wish to sell their r8/9 15^50 crys for 20k (coz they look crap), well i be more than happy to buy it off them.

It might not be very nice to do it, as the other end of the party will get shortchanged. But no where near wrong imo. I normally draw the line at friends/guild mates. I don't trade with them anyway.

take_me · Apr 24, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Depends...... if someone is asking for an honest Price Check I will give him my honest opinion, unlike many other people.

If I see someone selling Black Dye for 2k... I will pm him that it's worth more, because he doesn't know better.

If I see someone selling a req7 max gold Crenellated Sword for 50k... I will buy it (^^). No new, unexperienced player will have such an item....

Quote:

Originally Posted by kobey

I normally draw the line at friends/guild mates. I don't trade with them anyway.

Good point. Once a friend offered me a shield for 5k and I bought it (to use it on my Warrior and not to sell it). 1 day later he whispered me that I had ripped him off etc.. that the shield was worth a lot more and that he wanted it back... and so I told him he can have it back, although I already modded it for my Farming-build. Since then I hesitate to trade with friends, because in many cases it leads to nothing good.....

kobey · Apr 24, 2008, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by take_me

If I see someone selling a req7 max gold Crenellated Sword for 50k... I will buy it (^^). No new, unexperienced player will have such an item....

Hard to say hehe. I always believed all the good drops drops for noobs. Its up to the traders to do justice to the weapons (value).

O Nuxtofulakas · Apr 24, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

the "noob" who sells cheap a high end item, might be the same "noob" who will also try to sell an "ultra common r9 skin" for 100k+XXXe. (because he/she is a "noob" and he/she doesn't know prices, remember?)

how you apply your "morality code" here?

because as far as i remember whenever I've advised "noob sellers" that "hey m8 the value of your item is not that high and it will be very hard to sell it"
the reply i got was something close to: "you try to scam me noob, get lost blah blah blah"

is this "noobish behavior" morale?

We live in era of information, all knowledge is a few clicks away...there is no excuse.

Mr. Undisclosed · Apr 24, 2008, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Greed makes our economy go round. So sure, its only common sense to do a bit of research of what you're selling.

Fear Me! · Apr 24, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

I was tempted many times to buy cheap, but I always buy at the market price. There are posts that infer that it is immoral to buy cheap ingame, as it is in a way taking advantage of someone, and those posts that argue against them stating that trade is a conscious choice, not forced. This is a rather messy medium of course, the group of people as traders can be of any age group, among other things. You do not have to tell someone that they're selling far below the limit, whether you tell them that they are and try to be fair to them, is your personal choice. Clearly, its a choice between opportunism, and being just, and it all boils down to being a personal choice.

wilderness · Apr 24, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

This is because they have an underdeveloped sense of empathy/sympathy. Properly deveoped emotions trigger before the threat of consequences.

I disagree. A proper developed sense knows when it matters and when it does not. Video games are all about indulgence, after all. (see below)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fear Me!

Clearly, its a choice between opportunism, and being just, and it all boils down to being a personal choice.

Why attach such grand ideals to a video game? Just, the 'right thing'.

Video games are here for our indulgence, nothing more. You can afford to allow yourself the indulgence of being greedy in a video game, of being violent of lying of cheating and stealing... none of it is real and has no (except perhaps for some truly extreme conditions) actual negative effect on anyones lives.

A persons actions in game are in no way a direct translation of their real world self. Adhering to a strict moral code in game and not taking items for less than they could potentially be sold does not make you a better person than those that do, not in the slightest.

I'm not saying all this to justify a sense of guilt, nothing like that at all, I'm quite comfortable with my actions. This is a game people, play it well